Reading the thread on the fox trapping brought this question to mind.
If you were out hunting and came across a coyote would you shoot it and NOT skin it out or use the animal in any way?
I don't know what the pelts are worth but I know a lot of guys would shoot it and leave it lay to thin out the population. I have struggled with this question myself, knowing that they are rampant in most areas but also can't consciously shoot something and not put it to use in some way.
What would all of you do or have done?
Pelts are usually only good during the winter months. A lot of guys do leave 'em lay and I admit it is hard to do...I think you just have to weigh in on how you will feel. I personally don't have an issue with it.
I would always shoot one if given the opportunity, but would save the pelt to sell, or give to one of my trapping/yote hunting buddies. Problem is, I always seem to see them when unarmed, or still-hunting for deer! If, for some odd reason I saw one in the summer while armed(but why would I be armed in the summer? So that's never gonna happen!), I would have no problem leaving it lay. Bird killers!
Interesting question! Prices were pushing $30 a piece for prime pelts this past winter. It's hard to shoot them knowing they could be worth a good price this winter. Still...I would and have killed them in the spring while turkey hunting, and I would continue to do so. They are hard on all sorts of animals, expecially livestock. Young calves are especially vulnerable. With cattle prices still good, I wouldn't risk losing any to 'yotes. In Allamakee county there is still a bounty on them, so you do get $5 for the hide.
I would shoot one without a second thought. I would not leave it lay however. I would take it to the nearest fur buyer and sell it. I have no problem with shoot yotes. As far as leaving them lay? I couldn't do it. But I wouldn't look down my nose at someone who would.
I have no problem with a coyote being shot for its fur or because it is killing livestock. However, killing a coyote just because you happened to run across it and leaving it lay is ludicrous. Believe it or not they do play a vital part in preserving the balance of nature.
I don't have a problem with hunting any animal as long as it is being used for something, I completely dissagree with killing an animal for the sake of killing it. I do not personally hunt coyotes because I would not want to eat one, and I limit my hunting to animals which I eat.
The problem as I see and others see it, is that the yotes have tipped the scales in their favor, thereby unsettling the balance of nature. As mentioned in another thread, the yotes have decimated the fox population, and are a serious threat to both game and song birds alike.
We keep the pelts when they are prime, and try to dispose of the carcasses in a "humane" manner the rest of the year. I think we have bagged maybe one or two in the last 10 years during the spring or summer. With cover like green grass and crops, they are very difficult to track or even see.
Good question. Unfortuantly I sometimes do have to let the animal go to waste. I run an Animal Damage Control business, and law dictates, if its not in season, you cannot use it. During regular trapping season, and the winter months, many dog men (running yotes with dogs) do shoot them and leave em lay. Sometimes they cut the tails off and let the rest go to waste. Why? I dont know. I hate it, and it shines us all in a bad light, as far as hunters and trappers. I questioned the wonton waste law and it does state furbearers, about having to use all the fur, but too often DNR does not have the time or resources to find these guys. Another thing, please dont be shooting animals in traps! Unless it is your trap. I do not care to have a 12 guage slug in a 30.00 hide that brings it down to 0.50. You may think you are doing us a favor, but your not. Ill end it off here, but will answere any questions you guys may have.
Okay- I'm not going to voice my take on the subject quite yet, but am going to ask this question to those of you who would not shoot it cause there wasnt anything to do with it at this time of the year.
Does a coyotes mean more than a ground squirel which lots of people will shoot as target practice. I mean you are killing an animal and I bet you dont eat those. In almost any hunting magazine you get, at least once a month there is an article talking about ground squirel hunting with a new .17 or .22. I never read anything about what they do with the animals when the stories finished...
I will voice my opion now.
Have I shoot a coyote and left it lay? Yep sure have.
Will I do it again?? Yep sure will!
I actively hunt them during the spring, cause you can get some big coyotes during this time of the year, as the females preganant. Not so much now, but a month ago they were. I have already gotten 8 this year and thats not even trying real hard.
I run my coyote hunting like a business though. I have farmers who let me onto their property all year long, as long as I am killing coyotes. Some properties I may not be allowed to hunt anything but yotes, but from a farmers perspective, a coyote can cause lots of damage to property, livestock, tractors, trucks, and overall apperance of their operation. I have seen dens so big that if the tractor drove over it, it would fall in, all the way up to the axle and probably break something. I am more welcomed during this time of the year at farms, than any other time of the year.
During this time of the year, I will normally shoot them and gut them, and put the guts and parts of the animal in the deep freeze I have in the garage. Then come trapping season I will set some traps using the bait, and also some gut piles to use as bait for other coyotes.
There are also times when I will shoot a coyote during the spring and leave him lay where he dropped. more birds in the fall, more caves in the fall, and one less dog carring fleas, ticks, and mange.
Sorry for the long drawn out post, but That is my opinion on the subject.
Dan I do not think a coyote is considered a furbearer so I don't think the wonton wast laws apply to coyotes. I would have no problem shooting one in the summer and letting it lay but in the winter I would and do sell the hides.
This is actually a question that I have been dealing with for some time now. I would like to start hunting yotes but would like to put them to some use. I have not really figured out what I am going to do put there are good arguments on both sides. I do not believe that the animal will go to waste if you just leave it because something is going to eat it or it will make some good fertalizer.
In reply to Dan Shaws post about not shooting animals caught in traps, I have actually done this once. Shot a fox in the face from about five yards away. Guessing the pelt was not worth much after that. The fox actually looked like it was tied up in the fencline so I thought I was doing it a favor. I could not see the post that the snare was tied to so I did not realize it was trapped. Actually I have a question about that. The post was actually located in the ditch. Is this legal?
In my opinion that is kind of a silly question. I don't know anyone that would not kill a coyote and leave it lay (most would take it). And I can not recall any farmers that would like to see them alive. Maybe if you lived in an area where it was rare to see a coyote it may be different, because they are a unique animal.
Personally, if I shot it during the winter and it was not out of my way to retrieve it, I would take it and sell it. I have never passed up shooting a coyote and I have left a couple lay during shotgun season because there was not an easy way to go back and get them. Perhaps not all that ethical...but coyotes eat young pheasants and turkeys, occasionally calves or sheep, and whatever else, as well as, chase off deer.
Furs last winter were about $35-$60+ for yotes through a guy from I'm not sure where via Marengo.
Dead as a door nail..... will shoot them every chance I get. And it doesn't matter wheather winter, fall, summer or spring. I have shot them during pheasant season and turkey season and will continue to do so.... during the winter the boy skins em and sells the hide.
I also will do the same for a ditch tiger.....if they are further than 200 yards from a dwelling... they are where they should not of been.
Cralliard-- I was giving an example... kinda like people who fish for bass, catfish, trout, C&R or to eat, but wont just catch one and not do anything with it, but are the same people who have no problem bowfishing for carp, and throwing them in the dumpster when the get to the dock. I know it happens, I've seen it happen.
I was just using that senario as an example, cause some people dont think when they give opnions. I'm saying anyone on this site, but we all know people who I am talking about. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.
Continuous open season on Coyote. The DNR is the authority on what the are the right regulations for each species to maintain appropriate balance. On this issue I defer to them. I believe that if coyote populations weren't overrun/high they would change the regulations.
I have and will shoot coyotes and leave them lay.
As we all know private land permission is hard to come by and I always ask if they want 'yotes shot... if they say no I don't shoot 'em. If they say yes and I see one, its dead. If its winter and the hide is nice and not torn up from a pheasant load at 10' I'll save it; if not it gets rolled into the cover.
I have and would continue to shoot coyotes and at any given opportunity. However, I would not let them just lie and rot. That IMO is wrong. I would not and have not judged others that do, but for me I would not feel good about it. I find others that want the hide etc.
But I must admit , I have no problem killing cats and letting them lie. It's hypocracy I know, but I have this deep seated hatred of them and feel nothing for them.
Coyotes to me at least serve a God given purpose and should be respected as such.
I'd kill em, but would not let them just rot!
Guys, it sounds to me like you aren't designating between game and varmits. I would not shoot a game animal or bird that i don't use. However, there are animals that are designated varmits for a reason. They do damage to the environment is some way or the other. I don't want to see even a varmit go extinct but when they are designated as such that means you are doing the environment a favor by eliminating it. Coyotes are such an animal. That doesn't mean they don't do some good but on balance they do more harm. I'd be terribly disappointed if you wouldn't help protect our bird and and small animal population by helping control a preditor that is a major reason why many are having a hard time surviving.
And I agree with you birdhunter when you see a domestic cat in the wild. Also a dog that is running wild. A varmit doesn't have to be used to make you feel good about it. Just ridding the area of it is good enough.
Ref. an earlier post - I am not sure that the "yote have tipped the scale" as much as man has altered things to such an extent that coyotes, being more adaptable have moved in to the foxes "traditional" areas... When growing up in central Iowa, "packs" of roaming dogs were more of a problem than yotes. Anyway this is one area where the person has to make the decision based on what they feel is right. I wouldn't unless I had a use but don't have a problem with friends who chose to shoot yotes year around.
Would I shoot it? Yes. Would I leave it lie? Yes. Coyote are varmints much like mice in the house, or rats in the barn. They do some good, like controlling rodent populations (which is more than I can say for them ditch tigers.) But with the populations as high as they are they have attained varmint status. I don't want to piss anyone off by posing this absurd question but would you eat a mouse that you caught in a mouse trap in your home? Would you feel unethical if you didn't? They eat dogs in some asian countries. Maybe you could donate the meat to your local chinese restuarant. Maybe we could set up another hunters helping the hungry program with coyote meat and send it over to North Korea where food is scarce. Or feed it to inmates... Seriously though, ever seen a yote with a bad case of mange? To me that is much more unethical than thinning them out and letting em lie.
Just my opinion.
yotes dogs without collors and cats all get lead if they come close enough to me. and yes 9 out of 10 times leave them lay unless i know someone who can use the pelts. may seem sadistic but at least i'm honest and betting 80% of guys felling this way wont post caulse they are worried what they may be thought of.
No need to worry here..... I won't give it a second thought if you shoot em as far as I am concerned.. No need to have guilty feelings at all here. This is a free America and Free Speech is very well honored and cherished in my book.
Hell, I look at it like this. If a person doesn't want to shoot em... move aside and get out of the way cuz I'm unloading my gun as fast as that Browning Gold will spit them out.
Imagine, you're out with your bird dogs, got a couple birds in the bag, dog(s) are out ahead, doing what they do and all of a sudden one of your dogs distant cousins comes out of cover. You begin blasting away! Imagine what your pups think, "What the hell did that guy just do to deserve that, I better come next time I'm called!"
My general rule of thumb is - If I ain't gonna eat it, I ain't gonna shoot it. However; there are exceptions to every rule - Coyotes, feral cats and feral dogs to name a few.
Leaving 'em lay - Granted it doesn't do the shooter any "commercial" good - didn't sell the pelt, can't eat it (YUCK! eating coyote!). I wouldn't say it doesn't do ANY good though. Crows and buzzards and other little critters get a meal, as it rots all the stuff it's made of breaks down and returns to the earth fertilizing the ground there, local game has one less predator to run from. These things are going to just lay down and die one day anyway - we are just hastening the process a little.
I usually give mine to other hunters that sell their yotes. I have also left them lay where they fell. That only bothers me for about 5-seconds. I wouldn't judge a guy either way. I also believe very little in nature is truley a waste. I liked the comment about "ditch tigers." I used to trap when I was young. Freed many a stray cat.(figured it was a childs pet). However it got to be old shoe. Later ditch tigers didn't fare so well. They were in the wrong place, wrong time.
Call me unethical or not I would shoot a coyote and leave it lay if presented with the oppurtunity.
[QUOTE BY= khfish] Ref. an earlier post - I am not sure that the "yote have tipped the scale" as much as man has altered things to such an extent that coyotes, being more adaptable have moved in to the foxes "traditional" areas... When growing up in central Iowa, "packs" of roaming dogs were more of a problem than yotes. Anyway this is one area where the person has to make the decision based on what they feel is right. I wouldn't unless I had a use but don't have a problem with friends who chose to shoot yotes year around.[/QUOTE]
50 years ago, no one ever saw coyotes in the areas where my Dad grew up, mainly Hamilton county. Now we see them all of the time. Not much has changed in 40 years up there except for the construction of the interstate. The yote are extremely adaptable and as such are moving into areas that they do not belong. Therefore, yes, they have tipped the scales in their favor.
When a non-native species drives out the native one, it is considered agressive, and an inbalance whether it be plant or animal.
We shoot coyote all the time, get the bounty, and get rid of it. Is it ethical? Maybe not. But in my mind I see it as population management.
Is there still a bounty on yotes? How much? Where do you turn them in and what part of the animal do you need to turn in?
I have left 50 caliber holes in more coyotes during second shot gun season than you can shake a stick at.
Reading some of the posts here, is kind of what I execpted. There are people here who shoot and leave em. Do i preach at them, absolutely not. It is there right. But a coyote is considered a furbearer, they just have a year round season here in Iowa, and If DNR thought we had to few, that would change. What bothers me, is you guys and myself can shoot them year round, but I cannot trap them year round. (I can with my permitt, but I must show them creating a problem and landowner wants them gone, and I cannot sell anything from them)
Another thing as far as wonton waste, and leaving it lay, sure the bugs and crows will eat on it, they will also eat on deer, turkey, and other animals. So does this theory make it ok to shoot them and leave em? Also, yes you can eat a yote, I have heard its not the best to eat, and I personaly would never eat one.
I know farmers who would love to have me come and shoot deer and turkey year round for them. In there eyes, they are pests, rodents and varments too.
Now, dont take me wrong here, I am not tring to put anybody down for shooting and leaving them lay at whatever time of year they want to. It just agervates me to see em laying on the side of the road, in piles for all to see. IMO, it sheds all outdoors men in a bad light. At least make sure the general public cannot see them laying in stacks on the side of the road.
Now as far as the snaring question. You can place snares in the roadside ditch, as long as you are not in a fence line. Next time if you see that, call DNR. That time you was right to shoot it, and if the trapper had a problem with you doing so, and called DNR he would have gotten the ticket. Snares are made to restrain now-a-days,(on land) not strangle. There are a whole world of laws in IA reguarding snares, thats partialy why I stay away from them.
Once again, dont take my opionin on this matter as all trappers, and I am not saying anybody here is unethical, or anybody more ethical then others. as I myself have to waste raccoons, beavers, and other furbearers in the off season, and sometimes during season doing ADC work Iowa Law, I cannot sell, use, trade ect any furbearer out of season, and while in season by homeowners permission only) . And yes, I have hunted them yotes year round before myself. I just dont now, and I am simply stating why, plus I like to argue every once in a while, so dont take nothing I say personaly
...and how far should you really lead a coyote??????
In nature, nothing goes to waste. The fleash provides meals for all sorts of critters. And the bones provide minerals for the diets of mice, etc... I wouldn't doubt if gamebirds even chip away at the bones for the nutrients. Talk about sweet revenge! The way I see it, it's a perfectly justified kill. And I wouldn't fell one bit bad, or wastefull about it. However if the pelt were prime, I'd have to take it. Be it worth anything or not.
I am going to lay into you a little bit here, don't take offense, but your view seems to be a bit muddled to me.
Wow--more reading on this post then I do in a month. Personally I would not shoot coyotes just to leave them lay. If there was a specific problem--such as one bothering my critters or livestock on a friends farm--then I see a reason--but I won't shoot them just to shoot them.
As for shooting ground squirrels--I shoot those little monsters because they are causing damage--not just for target practice. Coyotes do damage too and those doing ACTUALL damage I would leave lay--but I just prefer to wait till the fur is decent so they don't just go to waste.
As for shooting ferel dogs--that makes me a bit nervous--just be careful, a dog can slip a collar and be running loose.
Yes I would shoot a coyote and if the pelt was fit I would take it to the fur buyer or let it lay if not. Just because I can't eat it does not mean its population does not need controling. Same for cats when they are far from buildings and out roaming. I would not shoot a dog unless I knew for sure it was a problem.
Thats just me. Just because I can do something and understand it, dont mean im going to go do it. And it only bothers me when I see them stacked on the sides of the roads, or out in the open for all to see. Too many people do that around where I live. That is what bothers me, not the fact that people are shooting them.
I have and will continue to shhot coyotes. I have seen some dramatic changes to an eco-system where coyotes became established. Of species directly affected by coyote predation (besides neighbors dogs) was Red Fox, Rabbit, Fawn Deer and Wild Turkey. Like any other wild animal that overpopulates an area and there will be a degredation of the local eco-system. I see shooting coyotes as a way to try to keep a balance. And being so human shy it can be difficult to control a local population.
So does anyone know exaclty what has caused the coyote population to become so out of control nowadays?
The biggest reason in coyote population increase IMO is the low fur prices for so long. It will take more then one season of high prices to bring there numbers down. When prices dip, and other factors, numbers rise. There are not many diseases that directly kill a coyote. Not that many people hunt or trap them either. There may be a vast many of people that do on here, but generaly not many do.
Maybe wolves should be reintroduced to the state to give a little bit of competition to the coyotes. I remember reading that the reintroduction of wolves to Yellowstone decreased the coyote population by about 50%.
Im all for that crilliard. I would love to hunt wolves here on Iowa soil. The biggest problem would be, that soon, they just like a coyote, would explode in population. Then instead of just yotes running around, you then have wolves and coyotes. They would surely take there toll on farmers, people, and livestalk, not to mention the game animals as well. In the outdoor world, $$ talks.
Other than helping with the coyote population...I can see no benefit of having a substantial population of wolves in Iowa. It would be cool to hunt them, but we are a farming state and wolves and livestock don't mix!
Hooks - not that i'm partial one way or the other, but just as an FYI... Montana, Idaho, Wyoming... all the states affected by recent wolf re-introduction and or renewed support are ranching states... just because Iowa has a bunch of farms and a few cattle doesn't eliminate the possibility.
I read an article awhile back about the wolves in yellowstone. It stated the statistics of livestock taken by wolves and if I remember correctly there were a lot more livestock taken by feral dogs, coyote and hawks than wolves. My guess why the coyote population is so high is because of a lack of competition. Not enough wolves, grizzly bears, and mountain lions in Iowa.
Believe me...I think it would be cool, actually I believe that there are a few floating around, you always hear stories. If mountain lions are roaming thorough, why not wolves? Animals per acre, I think Iowa probably has such a high density, compared with Montana's vast wildernesses. Plus the suitable habitat issue would come up. I would rather other things be done, like cleaning up the rivers, dredging rivers, stream improvement, even providing more pheasant nesting areas along fences and ditches. Just my two cents.
Mild Winters means more pheasants.
Mild Winters means more dear survive the winter which means more fawns born in the spring.
You get the idea.
More food=More Coyotes. Simple
hook, your right on the money about suitable habitat.....wolves are more old growth forest dwellers and need large tracts of continuous forest in order to maintain a population...Iowa just dosn't have that. Coyotes, on the other hand, are quite adaptable to living in dried up creek beds and holes dug in the side of a hill. I guess it would be cool to see them, but I have a feeling it won't be in Iowa....
oh yea, I shoot every coyote, ditch cougar, possum, racoon, or anything else I come across that might do damage to the pheasant population....do I leave them lay, sometimes, but if I am on someone else's land, I make sure they are picked up....to me that is just as bad as littering all over someone's land that let you hunt there...even if you don't use the animal, get into a trash bin...JMO
I am normally a leading advocate in I don't kill what I don't use, which is one reason I have never gone prarie dog hunting(some day I will). I also get agrevated at people who skin out just the breast of pheasants, partridge, ducks, geese and turkeys and throw the rest away. (I probably just pointed my finger at half the people who read IowaOutdoors ). However I have no problems with anyone killing a coyote and letting it lay with clear concience, and yes I would do it if I was in the right mood.
I never shot a chipmunk just for the heck of it.... o wait i do it all the time. we got 82 last year in the yard. and im not in the country.
hey dale i'd hate to see a coyote in my basement...lol i'd have to switch up to the double barell.
ive never seen a yote in the woods. i'd shoot it and put it in the back of a uhaul for some one to find.....lol hahaha just kidding. if i seen one where i hunt i'd leave it alone cause like i said ive never seen one in the woods. chipmunks are like ants around here, and so are the ground hogs. there a pain.
whitey i'll trade you a groundhog for a goat....lol
bradsefcok wrote: "Trapping is an indiscriminant sport. You set a trap and catch whatever happens to get itself caught in the trap. When I trapped, I caught everything from crows, owls, ducks, pheasants and mice in sets that were designed to catch coons and muskrats. I would imagine that that is the reason you can hunt coyote year round and not trap them.
You must not have been following the law then, How did you catch an owl without exposed bait? (illegal in Iowa, has been for at least 20 years)
I laws are in favor of catching target animals. ex: Trap size restriction, snare loop size, exposed bait, setting near driveways.
I have never caught a raptor or a duck. One pheasent and one crow in the past six years. hundreds of coon and over 15 coyotes per year in traps.
BTW, I wouldn't shoot a coyote and let it lay. It bothers me when deer hunters blow them away for "target"
not trying to start anything here but, isnt Iowa overpopulated with deer? I am just going to guess here but with all the accidents they cause and all the agricultural damage they do, shouldnt they be considered a pest? I am just thinking that yotes cannot be doing that much damage to the deer population, aas for the pheassant population I would have to say that I think they do.
Some interesting comments in this thread. I got intersted in coyotes once and did some research to satisfy my own curiosity. The following is some of he more interesting info I came accross:
Multiple studies have shown that coyotes increase litter size if mortality goes up. In other words, if there is enough "range", the litter size adjusts up or down to what is needed to keep it filled (with some extras to colonies new areas). Compound this with the fact that the presence of people usually only makes areas better suited to coyotes ("edge" habitat, removal of other predators, easy food sources, etc.). Because of this, it is estimated that people have to kill around 75% of the coyote population every year if you hope to have a long term effect. This may have happened in the time when poisoning, trapping, and widespread bounties removed all wild canines from many areas. That time wasn't that long ago, and I wouldn't be surprised if the "recent increase" is the resettling from that time.
Wolves reduce coyote numbers not only by killing coyotes, but because they reduce the "range" for coyotes. I have also seen some studies that show that predation on pets and livestock is lower with wolves or wolves/coyotes than with just coyotes. Sure, wolves would be guilty of some unwanted predation, but the question you rarely heard answered is the effect on the total unwanted predation. Probably a moot point in Iowa as we don't have much of the habitat required for a sustained wolf populaton anyways.
In most (maybe all) parts of Iowa, I doubt we (hunters/trappers) have any effect on the overall coyote population (and thus predation on more "desireable" species). Anecdotal evidence aside, if anybody knows of any scientific studies on the population effect of shooting 'yotes on a relatively small scale it would be interesting to hear it.
In the winter of 1971. We were hunting coyotes on the S.W. edge of Rhoades, Ia with trail hounds and greyhounds. We put two trail hounds on a fresh yote track. We kept circling the section. The two hounds, 1-120 lb. Black/tan the other a 60lb. walker. Anyway they got onto a different track. We seen them crest a ridge 100 yrds away. They were hot on the tail of a timber wolf. The black/tan was so close to this wolf, he was pulling the hair from the tip of it's tail. They caught it over the ridge, did battle. It escaped. It was about 2-3 inches taller than the black/tan hound. It wasn't a coydog or a coyote. We seen him up close using binocs at 100 yrds.
Yes, I would shoot a Coyote. I don't hunt them and finding one to shoot would be pure happenstance for me. Leaving it lay is not a problem for me as I feel I would be providing some food for other animals that feed on the carcasses of many animals and I would be getting rid of a varmint or problem. I do not hunt anything I don't use. Animals classified as varmints or pests can ethically be killed and left to whatever may occur naturally beyond that. I am not ever in favor of killing just because I can. I feel that attitude is wrong. Anytime I shoot at an animal I have a legitimate purpose in mind, otherwise I don't pull the trigger.
As far as what you may do, that is your decision as far as I'm concerned, re: coyotes.
Interesting info. Isn't that the reason (highly productive litters) why out West they have such trouble controlling the coyote numbers? Does anybody know anything about this? As eyefly suggests, does it really do anything at all to the population if you have a mild or even moderate degree of mortality?
Another coyote fact:
Trapping and hunting during the fur season does not affect the following years population. IF coyote control is the idea, it must be done in the spring by destroying entire litters.
here is some good reading:
Here is another good one one predator damage, putting it into $:
Badger, YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!!!!!!
Yes, a few taken coyotes will not effect the numbers game, but when you put an experianced trapper on property, he WILL make a difference. Example, I trapped an are a few years back, cought 80 coyotes in one months time. This farm was @ 200 acres. You mean to tell me the 80 coyotes did NOT effect the population the next year????? Why is it ranchers out west pay to have trappers come trap on there land? They see the decrease in numbers of animals killed by yotes. To some extent, down to 0 the following year. Are these years flukes? where they have numberous kills every year untill they hire a trapper to come in? And then suddenly the coyotes change diets? These animals are trapped during the fall season, when pelts are primmed.
Coyotes mate in Jan, just before trapping season ends. Now, lets say you have a ration of 1 male to 1 female coyote population, with 200 yotes on an area. A trapper or group of trappers/hunters come into an area, and take a total of 100 coyotes in a season 50/50. Say them coyotes had max food available, and would have produced 5 per female. Math says with 100 females giving birth to 5 =500 new yotes introduced. OK, we took 100 out of that batch before they mated, thus never having a litter, so destroying them litters completely was done prior to them breeding. Left out you have 50 female coyotes going to have 7 instead of 5. 7 times 50=350. 500(would have had)-350(did have)=150 coyotes never introduced.
My information is from Scott Huber, probably heard of him. Government trapper in S Dakota never meet him, just seen his posts on other sites. I tend to agree with him and what studies he was seen. I will try to find some exact studies to back up my claims.
You quote "80 coyotes in one months time. This farm was @ 200 acres."
So was there a coyote every 2.5 acres? Obviously no, you had a excellent travel/dispersal area. did the coyotes quit moving after the month you trapped? no they filled in from the same places the ones you trapped out came from.
Another quote:"Why is it ranchers out west pay to have trappers come trap on there land?
That is most likely year around....in the spring..., with methods like aireal gunning, denning, etc.
on the Logan research station link I provided above type in "coyote dispersal" or "coyote population" in the search functions.
Just one more thing Dan, are you saying you averaged 2-3 coyotes every day out of an area less than 1/2 section? Just want to make sure you didn't mistype something.
Wow Dan, that's a lot of coyotes.
In the 500-350 comparison, one would also take into account that only the dominant females reproduce most years. If one of them is killed, others will pick up the slack, so killing half the females you don't get only half the litters. You just get different litters (bigger litters, possibly due to younger more verile 'yotes being allowed to reproduce). One would also need to take into account that with the population dynamics of coyotes, the natural mortality rate is high. So, the loss of some yotes often frees up resources allowing other 'yotes to survive. This means healthier mother 'yotes, healthier pups, and 'yotes from other areas that would have died will fill the void in that particular population. So, not only do they have larger litters, but the survival rate within the litter beyond the first few months is higher. In some studies, less than 50% of pups in "unexploited" packs made it into July. In "exploited" packs, a much higher percentage survived. When I consider all of that, it doesn't make it hard to believe the 70% number...
So, suppose we kill 100 of 200 coyotes. We've reduced the number of litters not in half, but maybe from 40 to 30. But, the 30 litters are 20% larger and 50% more of them will survive. Average 'yote litter size is 6 with >50% mortality, so the number of surviving cubs the first few months would have been 120, but after killing 100 'yotes it is now around 180 (60 more surviving pups than before). But we killed 100, so we are still ahead by 40. Now, how many of those 100 we killed would have died anyways? Of the remaining adults, how many that would have died now survive? How many that would have died elsewhere moved into the range?
I can see where the 70% number might make sense.
Badger, don't assume that catching an owl means somebody is doing something illegal--that is a load of crap. A few years ago I had an owl caught in a 1-1/2 double coil. It was a legit set---put along a log with a bait tucked under the log in a pocket--not exposed at all. The same trap caught a mouse--very cool to see in a trap that big cause to was folded nose to tail. I am guessing mice were running along the log and the owl went for one and landed in the wrong spot.
It was caught by both legs. I wrapped a towel around him and released the trap. I then held the freakin bird in my lap while my buddy drove us about 20 miles back to town. I found a vet with a rescue league and the bird was later released near where it was caught.
I did NOTHING illegal but I did catch an owl. It happens because every trap in indescriminate no matter how well you set it. Animals and birds do odd things out or the norm and anything can happen.
Badger, no there was no typo. I am sure you can site spacific quotes from sudies to prove spacific statements. I know what I know from first hand experiance, not what I read that somebody did a study on something. That same 200 acre farm the following year only produced me 10 yotes all year, and have never cought that many yotes there again, running the same amount of traps, and aloting more time to catch more. Alot of the yotes I cought where 1 seasoners if memorey serves me right, with only @4 or 5 big yotes. Following season resulted in a smaller catch, but with bigger coyotes. A coyotes range can be quite large, or small. According to your theroy, and these studies, an grown coyote will find out that just before breeding season, with-in a week, and her body will tell her to spit out more young? I can see if the yotes are few, for two or more seasons this would be the case. But as for one season? Na. I dont see it. Maybe Im just boneheaded, but Ive been around a little. I am not saying I discontinue anybody that writes about something they studied, such as a doctor, or whatever, but in animals, it is next to impossible to do a true study.
Just thought I'd add some food for thought. Saw a recent study where having coyotes in the local area actually raised nesting success for ducks and pheasants because they controlled the fox and smaller critters like skunks, possums and cats. Their ability to harvest a few pheasants is lower than these other critters abilities to raid nests and catch chicks and ducklings... don't think your doing wildlife a favor until you know the whole story.
As far as why there are more yotes today think about the elimination of larger predators to control them - think of the fragmentation of habitat which only helps habitat generalists like yotes...
I personally think the whole yotes doing damage to farmers thing is over-rated.
That said if I shot or trapped one it would go to the furbuyer - although ditch tigers - being an introduced species are left to rot where they lay... guilt free. We are all playing god at some point with trying to manage for our favorite critters - that being the case I judge noone for their actions - provided they do not offend the general public.
The red fox we have here today are actually genetically not the fox we had here when first settled. Fox from Europe were intorduced here for sport and interbred resulting in most local fox holding little of their original genetic make-up... so even our foxes are not OUR foxes - we have messed up this country in more ways than we realize - contact me if you want the article form the research journals...
BTW - A friend of a friend who traps yotes in NE makes coyote sausage... told em I'd never been that hungry!
I was probably wrong to assume that catching a raptor ment some one is doing something illegal. I have caught non-target animals in my traps also, that were legally set.
I just don't want the general public to think that trappers set traps out and catch what ever happens to jump in them.
Nothing wrong with a good debate. I am really impressed with this post, as it was kept respectable for the most part. I still have a hard time with the concept that catching coyotes during regualar fur bearing season plays no role in the amount that are put out the following year. Here I thought I was doing some good. But according to you guys, I am helping to increase the population by trapping them.
I guess overall, a trap is an undiscriminatating tool, the same as a bullet, gun or car. All depends on who is in control, and what if any percations are taken, and a few other uncontrollable factors. (example, bird hunters dog crosses property line and gets in a trap). Anything is possible I gues, as people do play the lotto, and take there chance on winning even though slim to none. I will kill a ditch tiger as they are called (never heard that one untill this post came along, I like it). But I will also make sure it is to remain unseen.
One thing that gets me, is some of you refere to a coyote as a "varment" (Sp?). What spacific place did you guys learn this from? The state of Iowa, and every state in the US considers them Fur Bearers, same as muskrats, beavers, coons, or mink.
Your statement as far as the reproduction, is true in every species. We take the surplus, so theres more room for the next Gen. So, all outdoors men are wasting there time? And should we be hunting in the summer instead of Fall/winter?
If you have X amount of pheasants (or anything) on land, and the land can only hold X amount, when you drop down under that amount, more young will survive, due to food source available. Not because mama looks around and notices there are fewer of her kind around. Land can only hold a certain amount of animals before food starts to dissappear, and mother nature takes control. Same will hold true to deer, pheasant, and coyotes.
But we tent to control numbers by harvesting in the fall, and according to these studies, is useless. Maybe you guys are right. Maybe we all as outdoorsmen have been fooling ourselves, and Mr Roosevelt had it all wrong, along with all the studies that have ever been done to promote our sports.
Dan -- You raise some very good points. I had overlooked that you were talking of taking 'yotes during the latter part of their gestation period. I'd agree that that increases the effectiveness (and probably isn't taken into account in other studies). Heck, the numbers you were talking about I wouldn't be surprised if you took more than half o the population too! I believe you when you say you do have an effect on the next years population. But how many areas see that kind of focus on control on even a semi-annual basis? There's a big difference between what you describe and the deer or turkey hunter shooting the random 'yote and thinking they are making a difference.
It is true that some amount of mortality due to predation in all animals does not effect the overall population numbers. The extent to which this is true (and reasons) varies greatly from species to species (and from habitat to habitat). That's why some species have small bag limits and some have large bag limits. Some are year round, others are seasonal (there are othere reasons for that too). What I am saying doesn't contradict all of that other stuff (fall hunting, previous research, etc.) at all. The big populations of coyotes and deer shows that.
I'm not saying coyote populations (or anything else) CAN'T be impacted (heck, coyotes were almost wiped out once), I'm just saying that for coyotes it takes a lot more than most people realize. You seem to have a pretty good grasp on that yourself....
Eye fly and Dan Shaw,
Very good idea exchange. The conclusion I come to is that the occasional lost coyote due to a turkey or deer hunter does absolutely zilch to the population, either locally or on a larger scale.
So, what then - other than not liking the animal's habits - is the justification for killing a coyote and just leaving it? I, personally, can't think of one and for me, at least, it helps to settle the debate next time I'm out and a coyote wanders by.
Very interesting discussion. I'll put in another 2-cents. In 1962, we were hunting fox with greyhounds. We would see roughly 35-40 a winter in Marshall county. Back then we would drive roughly 3-7 mi. before we would see one. We never ran across another person who hunted fox, until around 1970. shortly afterwards the fur price for fox started to climb. It rose too 80-100 dollars very soon. Then everbody and their brother started to hunt them. We seen our first yote in 1968. By the late 70's the fox population became very thin. Now, I will drive usually 1500 mi or so a winter hunting yotes and might see 1-3 fox a winter.
Stop and think here guys. Every animal that you kill does effect the population. At the minimum you have reduced the population by one. Now does that loss effect the long time population of the spieces? Not really, but if everyone on this board takes one then it does have an effect. If the coyotes weren't hunted there would be more of them till the environment couldn't support anymore. Remember we are part of the environment when we trap and hunt we reduce the number that can live in the area. If they are thick we reduce it more and when they are scarce we have little effect. And nature will help to keep the spiece going by allowing better nutrition and living area so more will survive and litters will be larger and stronger. But we do have an effect, and that is the reason there are seasons for hunters on most animals that need some protection but not on others that we want to keep at a minimum level.
Will hunting ever eliminate a spiece? i doubt it since historically it never has and I see no reason that will change. But we definately can help control the numbers and help bring some balance to what and how many are able to live in a area.
I haven't read this whole post and maybe someone has already suggested this. I remember back in the 1950's when there was a high population of fox and the state put a bounty on them. You shot them and took the ears to the county courthouse and I think the bounty then was $4. How about trying this on yotes. They seem to be getting out of hand. I very seldom see rabbits any more on my farm. This past deer season, I was driving a small finger of timber (about 30 acres) out to my son and son-in-law. they said 9 yotes came out. That sounds like a high pop for that small of a timber. Just wish they were better shots. Missed the 2 they shot at.
what area of Iowa are you from? and do you hunt coyotes? If you do, how is the fox population?
Whiterook, Banjo's from southern Story Co. I have been in his timber with him, and seen 'yotes almost every time. While shroom hunting a couple weekends ago, I did see a nice red fox in his timber. He put on quite a show...trotting along, stopping quite often to check me out! After he finally topped the next hill, I started seeing chipmunks coming out of the woodwork.
d00buck: Thanks for the reply. I'm from central Marshall county. Avid coyote hunter(coyote addict). If you know anyone in our neighborhood who would like their coyotes hunted. I would be glad to help. Im just getting started in predator calling, so I can hunt them year around. I have killed quite a few over that last 36 winters while hunting them. This last winter I seen 75 yotes in Marshall county. I couldn't believe it myself. I did give some of them a very bad day.
I can't deny your statement about the individual animals you have listed with out doing a lot of research. But I do know that the passenger pigion was not hunted to extinction. A changing habitat, sometimes caused by man, was the main culprit. During the time I reserched the pigeons it was mentioned several times in different publications and by different authors that if you dig deep enough you will find there has always been others causes that were the main reason for extinction. That is not to say that hunting hadn't reduced the numbers but just that it wasn't the cause.
Take this same scenero to the Wisconsin CWD eradication effort. They have tried unsuccessfully to eradicate the deer in a fairly small area and just can't do it by hunting. Coyotes, foxes, timber wolfes, mountain lions, bobcats, groundhogs, prairie dogs, rats, mice, mosquitoes, and Conservatives have been the target of eradication over the years and they are still all around. Numbers were reduced but they survived. We have learned better over the years and have stopped the eradication process on all but conservatives, but maybe Ted Kennedy and Tom Dachele, and Tom Harkin will get the message soon.
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